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Re: Fire Emblem Fates: Or GS and OM go on about something nobody else plays


I took one look at the beach thing and halfway thru the dialogue went "yep, circling back to this after I finish both sides and know who everyone is" :lol

As for Kinshis, they kinda suck. Frankly, so do Falco(n)Knights in this one (damnit, NoA. PICK A NAME AND STAY WITH IT :P)

I made Subaki one, because he started out great and then couldn't keep up with the rest of my party. I saw "wow, flying archer" and had flashbacks of my dear friend, the hillariously OP Canopus from Tactics Ogre (a game in which archers are Battle of Agincourt terrifying. A flying one, who's naturally strong is just.. death.) He continued to suck. He was a lancer so weak he usually couldn't even kill mages, and as a bowman really wasn't all that much better. I found the one real great use for Knishis is they are AMAZING as air superiority fighters, as Reina proves in the level she joins you. There's one or two battles with tons of Wyverns and Dark Riders that's super handy to have, but it's a very specific use.

That said, if you could get one with decent growths? Yeah. I could see that being super useful. Bow Knights have long been a class I've really been a fan of.

But both the Falcon Knights I attempted to use (Hinoka and Caeldori) weren't all that great either. The fact that a child statted one was still "meh" made me wonder why they got nerfed so badly. In most FE games aside from the hard counter of archers (and occasionally Wind tomes) they're really good troops. Hinoka on the other hand stayed useful mainly due to a late Str growth spurt (though I came within inches of benching her during midgame when she couldn't hurt anything), and Res so absurdly high even most boss mages couldn't hurt her.

Though on the other hand, they CAN use Staves now, so if they were as strong as in past games, they'd probably be kinda broken. So i guess there's that, and i did enjoy having like 5 healers on my team (and needed them, since Hoshidians are awful).

Last edited by Greatshot, 3/16/2016, 1:04 am
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Re: Fire Emblem Fates: Or GS and OM go on about something nobody else plays


So, you'll have to tell me if this continues in Conquest, but I think I know why people seem to be weaker here.

I was doing some grinding and it seemed like the most common stat-ups were 2-4 stats successfully. Anything with 5+ stats going up in a level was rare, while 1 stat levels were rare, but not unheard of.

From what I remember from other games, most characters tended to average in the 4-6 range for stat ups, with gigantic stat ups like 7s and 8s being rare, while 1-2 were equally rare, and 3-4 were lousy, but uncommon.

Also, you've mentioned the Hoshidoans tend to average poorly. I'm kinda curious who your standouts were besides Takumi (whose bow is actually more broken than Ryoma's katana even with the ranged attack, just due to Archer/Sniper skill frontloading in this game vs. Swordmasters) and Oboro (who I keep finding myself thinking is the strange time lost lesbian lovechild of Mia and Nephenee, because she gots her spear fighting all over it, but then there's only one other character I can think of in FE history that does blue hair and orange primary colors. :lol)

Also, I feel sorry for poor Dwyer. His supports and recruitment mission are hilarious, just for the contrast with his dad. But the kid is SCREWED by a personal, irremovable skill that does jack and !@#$ outside of My Castle fights. :lol

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Re: Fire Emblem Fates: Or GS and OM go on about something nobody else plays


quote:

Optimal Megatron wrote:

From what I remember from other games, most characters tended to average in the 4-6 range for stat ups, with gigantic stat ups like 7s and 8s being rare, while 1-2 were equally rare, and 3-4 were lousy, but uncommon.



My general rule of a "Great Lvl Up" is what I call the core 5x: Str (or Mag for a caster), Speed, Skill and Def (or Res for classes that are Res heavy). Adding in a precious HP makes it an awesome level. I'll take any 4 of those as a really solid increase. Anything beyond that is spectacular but pretty rare. MOST of the standout characters (Ike, Hector, Nephenee, Donnel, Chrom, your Avatar in the newer games, the better children in the 3DS ones and so on and so forth) tend to hit that 4-5 stat mark pretty well. "Pretty good" or specialist characters (ie, Swordmasters don't get defense much) tend to net 3-4 more often and for those classes, I'll consider that a good level up. I tend to mostly ignore luck, as it only effects crit hit rates and if you REALLY need a crit hit, you use a Killer weapon or in the newer games, can massage that with passive skills and supports. Likewise Str is useless on a mage and Magic is useless on most of the melee classes baring someone with decent growths in it who has access to a weapon that does Mag damage (ie promoted Mist with the Sonic and Rune Swords in PoR).

But TL;DR, for most characters, they seem to average 3 stats per level up for the most part. Anyone with growth less consistent than that will always fall behind, though anyone can RNG a bad (or good) level here and there. Generally your Jeigan has 1-2 stats per level, which is why pre-promotes are such garbage in most of them.

I'm about halfway thru Conquest (which so far I'm liking better for several reasons, primarily being that most of the team is so hilariously messed up. Arthur is rapidly becoming one of my alltime faves. :lol). I'm right about unpromoted lvl 15, which is where I started to notice I seemed to be falling behind the enemy a bit, and so far, aside from Peri (who just joined me and was about 3 or 4 levels behind so I can excuse her crappy defense until she catches up), I haven't had to baby anyone yet. But I'll revisit that in several chapters. It "seems" that my guys seem to be getting mostly okay to decent levels though, no ones growths seem to be off the charts,

quote:

Also, you've mentioned the Hoshidoans tend to average poorly. I'm kinda curious who your standouts were besides Takumi (whose bow is actually more broken than Ryoma's katana even with the ranged attack, just due to Archer/Sniper skill frontloading in this game vs. Swordmasters) and Oboro (who I keep finding myself thinking is the strange time lost lesbian lovechild of Mia and Nephenee, because she gots her spear fighting all over it, but then there's only one other character I can think of in FE history that does blue hair and orange primary colors. :lol)



I told ya Takumi was OP :p Aside from him (and his would be even more rediculous except he can't use the Fujin Yumi son) and Oboro, i really didn't have anyone I'd consider a real standout, honestly. Once my Avatar classed up into a Hoshidan Noble his growths got really quite good (though not in the range of Hector/Ike just singlehandedly overrunning a flank) good. Sophie was my next best overall performer, she ended up being a very solid Great Knight. Next tier down from that was Oroshi (who I had to give a couple speed wings to to ensure she always 2x'd, but had great dmg and crit hit numbers), Kagero (insane str for a Ninja), but surprisingly not outstanding speed/avo and TERRIBLE HP growth, Hana (but as I've said before, SM's just.. aren't good on this one due to them only getting their Avo bonus on player phase) Kaden (pretty solid overall - he was basically how SMs used to be, dodgy and fast all the time), Mozu - all around great numbers but shitty defense, and Silas, who only started getting outclassed around ch. 25 or so when his str capped at a disapointingly low number.

quote:

Also, I feel sorry for poor Dwyer. His supports and recruitment mission are hilarious, just for the contrast with his dad. But the kid is SCREWED by a personal, irremovable skill that does jack and !@#$ outside of My Castle fights. :lol



Didn't get him, but I'm guessing he has Capture? Yeah, that skill is ass. :lol

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Nope, one better. Born Steward.

Also, I'll have to keep an eye on Orochi. I kinda made Rhajat my default Diviner after a bit (being Mozu and Hayato's kid didn't hurt her much), but I liked Orochi. She just seemed to slow down so fast it was impossible for her to kill anything without an assist. I'll have to keep an eye out for Speedwings.

Random thing on the Low Caps that I have run into, though. If you build those little decorative statues in My Castle, they have tiers.

At tier 1, the statue increases the cap for a stat for that given unit. At tier 2, it upgrades that cap for that unit and their C or above Supports. At Tier 3, it increases the cap globally for your entire army. Not sure what unlocks what tiers (it seems to be support based, I think, but not sure) but it's one thing to get over some humps like you mentioned with Silas.

Last edited by Optimal Megatron, 3/16/2016, 11:54 pm


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quote:

Optimal Megatron wrote:

Nope, one better. Born Steward.

Also, I'll have to keep an eye on Orochi. I kinda made Rhajat my default Diviner after a bit (being Mozu and Hayato's kid didn't hurt her much), but I liked Orochi. She just seemed to slow down so fast it was impossible for her to kill anything without an assist. I'll have to keep an eye out for Speedwings.



Could just be an example of RNG craziness too. One of my all-time best examples of that is Oscar in PoR. On my first playthru he was TERRIBLE. Just.. completely useless and had to be replaced before I even started hitting promotes.

On my second playthru, he was literally my best guy (that wasn't Ike, because Ike/Ragell/Ather).

FE can be a janky series sometimes. Some guys are fairly predictable, others vary so much. Even this one, when I started Conquest, I opted to restart from the beginning to revisit the storyline for context/clues i missed and to make sure I got more XP for the Avatar since there's precious little grind opportunities in Conquest.

I had my original Branch of Fate save at lv 8, so i cross checked stats (I rolled the same "guy", same class, boon/weakness/look), and the stat difference at that level was pretty substantial. For giggles I'll upload the numbers next time I play, I jotted them down on a note that I stuck in my 3DS case, but I'm too lazy to go downstairs right now. :lol

Last edited by Greatshot, 3/17/2016, 4:15 am
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quote:

I had my original Branch of Fate save at lv 8, so i cross checked stats (I rolled the same "guy", same class, boon/weakness/look), and the stat difference at that level was pretty substantial. For giggles I'll upload the numbers next time I play, I jotted them down on a note that I stuck in my 3DS case, but I'm too lazy to go downstairs right now. :lol



Okay, so fun with numbers. I had initally planned on doing my original play thru of the trilogy using the same character (jumping in at the Branch of Fate).

However, I am an unabashed, unashamed munchkin and upon realizing that Felicia is a prepromote and had been leeching sweet sweet XP (along with the Birthright branch folks you lose), I opted to redo them.

So sticking with the core of the idea, I re-rolled the same character - same looks, same name, same class (Samurai), same boon (Strength), same weakness (Luck).

At level 8 (Samurai) with nothing equipped:

Original:
HP: 23
Str: 16
Mag: 7
Skill: 9
Spd: 9
Lck: 7
Def: 8
Res: 4

Re-roll:
HP: 25
Str: 13
Mag: 8
Skill: 12
Spd: 10
Lck: 6
Def: 10
Res: 3

Aside from the strength drop, the 2nd time was much better overall.
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Re: Fire Emblem Fates: Or GS and OM go on about something nobody else plays


So, from the files of "who saw THAT coming?"

Current heavily overperforming members of the team on my run are Azama and Saizou. Azama I mostly just leveled up to get his daughter because I'm a completionist. He's amusing to read, but I had to dig for someone whose support didn't make me feel bad for the poor girl I saddled with him (of all the people, it's FELICIA that pulls the rug out from under him and gets him some improvement as a person. I was amused.)

As a result, his Priest -> Great Master promotion line apparently made him into a total monster. He doesn't have the highest HP of my team, but it's close, and his strength and speed are just monstrous. Add on Renewal from his skills, and if I give him someone within range to heal him, the enemy basically has to focus all on him to put him in danger. Otherwise he just heals too much on his own.

For the lolz, I briefly side-classed him to Butler to get the Live To Serve skill, so now he heals himself when he heals others, making him MORE unkillable. It's hilarious.

Saizou, meanwhile, was unexpected. I had three ninja and didn't want Kaze to die (Him dying if you don't A-support him before a cutoff was a spoiler that I ran into by accident before the game released) and I liked Kagero, so I used them more. Kaze started out as a beast, but seems to have slowed down since promotion. Kagero is holding steady. And now that I'm working on Saizou, he is a *monster*, managing with no cross-classing, skill cheesing, or other outside uses. He just scores 4 stats minimum on like, 90% of his level ups, and has had multiple 6-7 stat level ups. It's insanity. :lol

Another "pre-promote, ech" that is turning out better than expected is Ryoma, who's leveling about as well as Saizou, albeit without the benefit of being a T1 class. I cross-classed him to Weaponsmaster to get some extra skills to shore up his Swordmaster tree, but his katana is insane once you actually bother to use him. It can *trigger Astra at range*.

Felicia started out seeming a bit anemic until I actually looked at her stats and was able to address them. Her Strength growth was atrocious, which hurts normal shuriken, but then I got a Flame Shuriken that goes off her OMGWTF magic stat, and she absolutely murders everything. Waiting for some Speedwings to speed her up so she can double things, but she does an *insane* single shot damage as is. If she can double, she'll be a glass Death Star. :lol

On the side of characters I want to like and use more, but just sad, poor poor Scarlet. She's the only Wyvern unit you get in Hoshido, from what I can tell, but she starts out as a Level 1 Wyvern Lord, and unless you're supporting her with the Avatar, there's nothing to shore up her weaknesses early on. She's really a case of a unit that's hurt by the removal of Second Seals.

This is, admittedly, one thing I'm really noticing. Awakening was great with the Second Seals for guys like Frederick and so on, who could avoid being pre-promote garbage by leveling down and grinding back up. It broke the game in other ways, but I wish they'd retained that aspect at least. Maybe only be able to Second Seal once, so it's only really viable for pre-promotes, without getting out of hand. Everything else about the reclassing is working out pretty well, but that's one thing in Fates that seems to be a step backwards.

Also, at this point in the game, the weapons tree changes really stand out. A good forged Iron weapon when you have the ore to get it up to +3 outperforms a Steel weapon 90% of the time. Presumably forged steel weapons would similarly outdo the iron tier, but that Silver debuff really needs a counter way to cleanse it. I realize it's a balance thing, but the fact you can almost knock yourself into stat debt by actually using it more than once (like, say, if you have it on you when a series of counter attacks hits), you're gonna have a bad time.

Last edited by Optimal Megatron, 3/18/2016, 10:58 pm


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Re: Fire Emblem Fates: Or GS and OM go on about something nobody else plays


quote:

Optimal Megatron wrote:

Current heavily overperforming members of the team on my run are Azama and Saizou. Azama I mostly just leveled up to get his daughter because I'm a completionist. He's amusing to read, but I had to dig for someone whose support didn't make me feel bad for the poor girl I saddled with him (of all the people, it's FELICIA that pulls the rug out from under him and gets him some improvement as a person. I was amused.)

As a result, his Priest -> Great Master promotion line apparently made him into a total monster. He doesn't have the highest HP of my team, but it's close, and his strength and speed are just monstrous. Add on Renewal from his skills, and if I give him someone within range to heal him, the enemy basically has to focus all on him to put him in danger. Otherwise he just heals too much on his own.

For the lolz, I briefly side-classed him to Butler to get the Live To Serve skill, so now he heals himself when he heals others, making him MORE unkillable. It's hilarious.


Ha. That's funny. :lol

quote:

Saizou, meanwhile, was unexpected. I had three ninja and didn't want Kaze to die (Him dying if you don't A-support him before a cutoff was a spoiler that I ran into by accident before the game released) and I liked Kagero, so I used them more. Kaze started out as a beast, but seems to have slowed down since promotion. Kagero is holding steady. And now that I'm working on Saizou, he is a *monster*, managing with no cross-classing, skill cheesing, or other outside uses. He just scores 4 stats minimum on like, 90% of his level ups, and has had multiple 6-7 stat level ups. It's insanity. :lo



I'm surprised by that. I figured Saizou would end up being crappy since he seems to be the big named early power one. But yeah, Kaze bit it for me, juuust after I decided to use Kagero instead due to her much higher Str score at that point (I had been using both but 2 of the same class in a party is something I try to avoid if I can be more rounded). Which surprised me. I figured "eh, he'll be back." And then he never did, and then i got to the end and saw him listed as Retired Ch](15? I think), went "huh, ok, it marked him as normal dead in that fight. Gotta be a way to save him then." Is it any A-rank, or specifically with the Avatar? If it's the Avatar I missed it by one rank. :ouch

quote:

Another "pre-promote, ech" that is turning out better than expected is Ryoma, who's leveling about as well as Saizou, albeit without the benefit of being a T1 class. I cross-classed him to Weaponsmaster to get some extra skills to shore up his Swordmaster tree, but his katana is insane once you actually bother to use him. It can *trigger Astra at range*.



Yeah, Astra on a 1-2 range sword is hilariously brutal. Trueblades (the 3rd tier Myrm/SM rank) in RD can use Alondite, which can proc it. Given that Ryoma's has the extra critical hit bonus too.. yeesh. I was tempted to use him since I suspected he could be pretty good, but I try to avoid pre-promotes out of habit on my first go and I figured using him AND Takumi would effectively be like having TG Cid. emoticon

quote:

Felicia started out seeming a bit anemic until I actually looked at her stats and was able to address them. Her Strength growth was atrocious, which hurts normal shuriken, but then I got a Flame Shuriken that goes off her OMGWTF magic stat, and she absolutely murders everything. Waiting for some Speedwings to speed her up so she can double things, but she does an *insane* single shot damage as is. If she can double, she'll be a glass Death Star. :lol



Either I overlooked the Fire Shuriken or I picked it up after I benched her because I didn't even think of that. That'd effectively turn her into a tome/staff user with a different weapon triangle, which is not a bad thing.

quote:

On the side of characters I want to like and use more, but just sad, poor poor Scarlet. She's the only Wyvern unit you get in Hoshido, from what I can tell, but she starts out as a Level 1 Wyvern Lord, and unless you're supporting her with the Avatar, there's nothing to shore up her weaknesses early on. She's really a case of a unit that's hurt by the removal of Second Seals.



Yep. I was really disapointed she started promoted as I knew that late in the game she's one of those "replacement" units they give you late game, and thus, sucks.

quote:

This is, admittedly, one thing I'm really noticing. Awakening was great with the Second Seals for guys like Frederick and so on, who could avoid being pre-promote garbage by leveling down and grinding back up. It broke the game in other ways, but I wish they'd retained that aspect at least. Maybe only be able to Second Seal once, so it's only really viable for pre-promotes, without getting out of hand. Everything else about the reclassing is working out pretty well, but that's one thing in Fates that seems to be a step backwards.



Agreed. I really liked actually being able to USE those guys. I'm hoping they at some point intro Second Seals in limited quantity (like how you can only get two of the Dread/Ebon seals from the bonus box)

quote:

Also, at this point in the game, the weapons tree changes really stand out. A good forged Iron weapon when you have the ore to get it up to +3 outperforms a Steel weapon 90% of the time. Presumably forged steel weapons would similarly outdo the iron tier, but that Silver debuff really needs a counter way to cleanse it. I realize it's a balance thing, but the fact you can almost knock yourself into stat debt by actually using it more than once (like, say, if you have it on you when a series of counter attacks hits), you're gonna have a bad time.



Yep, and it's for the worse as I feared. I called it right out of the gate that Silver weapons were going to blow now. The fact it stacks is absurd. -2 def and -5 crit evade is a TERRIBLE penalty as it is. <_<

They're basically A/S rank limited use specials, if something REALLY needs to die in one hit and that's the only way I can do it/or I can be assured I'm not getting attacked on Enemy Phase.

Steel, likewise is much worse now. You can, at least, overcome that penalty with better characters late game, and they're fine for characters that wouldn't 2x anyways (ie Knight/Generals), but for most of the game, it's all Iron, all the time. I'd much rather just craft stronger Iron weapons than waste time and gold on any of the others. Give me breakable weapons I'll actually use over this anyday.

On the whole, I've been getting the sinking feeling that this game is balanced for Casual. Along with the weapons, there's a LOT of things that seem very awful for Classic FE play, like the long range artillery golems, or tons of maps with floors that hurt you, or the OMGWTF STOP THAT! second battle with Camilla in Birthright.



Last edited by Greatshot, 3/19/2016, 5:49 am
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Well, Fates is the first time they've tried the indestructible weapons in a modern game, so I figure they're probably going to take a pass at balancing them before they get it completely right. Same with how Awakening's reclassing was hilariously broken and Fates is more balanced.

Honestly, I'd wonder if it might be worth it so that Iron and Steel weapons are mostly as presented, and leave Silver Weapons as degradeable. It'd fit the metals in question, and make Silvers have a more manageable tradeoff than a stat decrease.

If you want to keep the stat decrease, I'd say go with the new "on initiating combat" thing they're doing and only have the debuff happen if YOU attack, and only once. Get rid of the stacks and it's dangerous, but manageable. More of a gamble than a schmuck bait trap.

Admittedly, the Dread Fighter makes Silvers ridiculous since they recover from the stat debuff at twice the rate (i.e. they get all their stats back one turn after a use), but the fact counter attacks also hit the debuff still makes that problematic.

Speaking of, you can get infinite Dread Scrolls and Ebon Wings from the latest DLC map. You just have to be able to beat all five other royal siblings than the one you pick and their retainers with three units while everyone has top tier gear. I tried it like six times just to beat it to say I did. Not even once (and several times killed within 4 turns). IntSys are sadists. :lol

Also, the Flame Shuriken showed up in the armory at some point. It was one of the limited stock weapons. However, I've had a lot of success with making Felicia a Strategist (Tomes/Staves, mounted), as the stats it nerfs are already weak for her and it buffs her speed. Which helps, since the Flame Shuriken is locked like Bronze weapons. It can't crit, double, or offensive skill.

Also, on the lava map, I laugh NOW at the fact they don't label the Dragon Veins, and so poor Sophie triggered a lavaslide on my entire army.

Hinoka: Honey, WHAT DID YOU DO. :no
Sophie: I DON'T KNOW! :eek

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3/19/2016, 11:46 pm Link to this post Send PM to Optimal Megatron AIM
 
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quote:

Optimal Megatron wrote:

Well, Fates is the first time they've tried the indestructible weapons in a modern game, so I figure they're probably going to take a pass at balancing them before they get it completely right. Same with how Awakening's reclassing was hilariously broken and Fates is more balanced.

Honestly, I'd wonder if it might be worth it so that Iron and Steel weapons are mostly as presented, and leave Silver Weapons as degradeable. It'd fit the metals in question, and make Silvers have a more manageable tradeoff than a stat decrease.



I just don't like it at all. I don't see any way to make the higher tier weapons actually worthwhile unless they go back to, as you suggested, limited uses for them. The ONE thing I picked up on going thru Conquest that I missed initially is you don't get dinged with any of the penalties if you're dual striking - so with a little juggling you can swap in a Steel/Silver/etc, attack with Iron on the main, get the bonus secondary damage with the silver, then swap in a decent weapon for that unit's actual attack.

quote:

If you want to keep the stat decrease, I'd say go with the new "on initiating combat" thing they're doing and only have the debuff happen if YOU attack, and only once. Get rid of the stacks and it's dangerous, but manageable. More of a gamble than a schmuck bait trap.



That's reasonable but still convinces me the game isn't balanced for Classic. When your people can die, there is zero incentive to lose two defense and CHC defense for any reason at any time unless you absolutely, positively, have to do 3 more damage to a boss right this very minute.

quote:

Speaking of, you can get infinite Dread Scrolls and Ebon Wings from the latest DLC map. You just have to be able to beat all five other royal siblings than the one you pick and their retainers with three units while everyone has top tier gear. I tried it like six times just to beat it to say I did. Not even once (and several times killed within 4 turns). IntSys are sadists. :lol



I'll have to check that out when I'm done with the main game. I tend to steer away from the DLC stuff for the most part til I do the games once, though I've poked into the gold one a couple times and the exp one a few between the 2 games.

quote:

Also, the Flame Shuriken showed up in the armory at some point. It was one of the limited stock weapons. However, I've had a lot of success with making Felicia a Strategist (Tomes/Staves, mounted), as the stats it nerfs are already weak for her and it buffs her speed. Which helps, since the Flame Shuriken is locked like Bronze weapons. It can't crit, double, or offensive skill.



I suspected I either overlooked it in the shop due to that or just ignored it. It's a named character's drop in Conquest which is why I remembered it more there. :lol

quote:

Also, on the lava map, I laugh NOW at the fact they don't label the Dragon Veins, and so poor Sophie triggered a lavaslide on my entire army.

Hinoka: Honey, WHAT DID YOU DO. :no
Sophie: I DON'T KNOW! :eek



:lol

Strange, they were labeled for me, at least in the sense that it said "This will either open a path or burn all you hold dear", assuming that you mean the one with all the freakin howitzer golems emoticon

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